Lion IRC Cub
I know the title is misleading 
I’m having a debate over at the Atheist Foundation of Australia forums which is a classic example of sophistry and the Gish Gallop that the religious use in debates, at least this fellow can’t hide by picking and choosing the replies he makes to people on forums or blogs and has to deal with me in the limelight.
There has been no logic at all presented by Lion IRC for the affirmative, and appears the CLASSIC creationist/religionist approach of simply muddying the whole argument with half truths, word soup diatribes that don’t mean … well anything really that I can try and strain out of the mess. Since Lion IRC has chosen to stick to using jibes and ‘wit’, I’m going to rather just say the truth as I see it in the hope that this kicks him in the butt enough to respond to the actual debate, that’s me. I’ve been trying to be polite and on topic with no fluff out of some mis-placed respect for my opponent, but it is just not reciprocal, in fact from the start it has been totally disrespectful to myself, and the value I had put on him being able to at least put his position across and that he could actually defend it to some extent. how wrong I was. it’s like he hasn’t thought about the logic of his position AT ALL.
I think Lion IRC thinks this is a joke. Which isn’t so good since he is right out there in the limelight, representing his position on his core concepts of his god.
Maybe I was not too far wrong with the Gish Gallop, as he hasn’t in his first 2 large posts raised any real logic. There is plenty of big words, long sentences that meander around to appear as though something of importance, backed by ‘red references of note’, looping attempt at some kind of failed sophistry .. but nothing I have put forward in regard logic and actually approaching the topic of the debate. He seems to be winding slowly around trying to head in the direction of where he started, trying to argue that an omniscient god doesn’t have to know everything.
It’s like watching some bad actor playing Ceasar on stage giving some kinda speach, prancing around and it’s really hard to understand what they are saying as it’s heavy Shakespearean. But they think they are on top of the world. It’s kinda embaressing to be honest.
You can read the full debate here as it stands so far.
My basic argument that the theist Lion IRC has avoided :
1/ An omniscient being knows all future and past facts, including all possibilities and experiences any of those possibilities could have.
2/ This means these facts are unchangable as the omniscient being already knows that they would change it and to what, there is no way these facts were not known.
3/ The result is the existence of this being would be immutable, unchangable. This being would be powerless to change the future as it already knows what it would change, it knows EVERYTHING.
4/ The only way it could change the immutable knowledge it has of the future would to not be omniscient.
5/ But not being able to change the future, would mean that this being was not omnipotent.
check out some classic comments from Lion IRC during the debate :
Likewise, my case necessarily includes proofs that my opponent’s position is illogical
I’m still waiting on this, I’ve asked a few times now and he just avoids it like the plague.
When God says, “I don’t know what I am going to do tomorrow He is telling the truth.
Lion IRC clearly refuting his argument by defining his god as not knowing something. ie: what he is going to do tomorrow. a total contradiction.
How the hell can an Omnipotent Being NOT possess all knowledge?
My FAVOURITE Lion IRC again showing that an Omnipotent god can’t do something. He refutes himself in one sentence, the pinnacle point that his post led up too.. a total contradiction.
LION IRC >"If I can convince the readers that omniscience and omnipotence are not mutually exclusive in logic then I will have done so."
How can you argue with logic like that?
To know past and future dictates a deterministic system. (if you really know how it will be it cannot be different)
To know the future means changing it is impossible, thus there is no choice over actions thus no real power. (if it cannot be different it cannot be changed)
I am not a great student of logic, or even an adherent to it's utility for navigating through life.
Perhaps this debate would be better placed as a contest between the affirmative "precognition excludes choice" rather than negating "my concept of god is logically both omnipotent and omniscient"
Yea for sure, I was looking at the many differing arguments on the topic, it would have been an interesting discussion and there are some gymnastics around the topic, but poor Lion IRC seems intent on basically ending up saying 'because I can conceive of my god being both, therefore he must be both'
The whole thing seems to be an exercise in begging the question
Hi Davo,
I'm sorry they banned me from the AFA VERY shortly after our debate ended. They even hit me with a 48 hour ban immediately after I agreed to your debate challenge. Protium lifted the ban when I pointed out to him that it "might" give the appearance of allowing you more time to prepare whereas I was ready and waiting to post make my opening statements.
I would love to do another formal debate with you some time if you feel you would like to give me the chance to even the score (LOL) or thrash me in public for all to see again (LOL).
Either way, if you feel you are an effective counter apologist it would be a shame for you to "hide your lamp under a bushel"
I got rushed by so many forum members over there when I first joined I was disappointed by the unexplained ban. If I am ever allowed back please message me.
What about the "problem" of pain?
Maybe we could debate "objective" morality?
Any topic you like. Any forum you like. Any debate format you like.
Best regards – Lion (IRC)
Hiya Lion IRC,
I'm happy to discuss stuff with you, not sure of the merits of a formal debate except for the value in making the people within it think. I hope in some way I have been able to give that to you.
Of course I think discussion is healthy, but when it starts just going around in circles with no end, then that kinda defines a topic rather than picking one out of the blue, just like what happened on the AFA forums. In a way I expected you to back out of it and realise just how momentus a task you were trying to take on with over 3000 years of historical philosophy behind the concepts I presented. Apparently not
I am not counter apologising. I value reasoning and logic and I think it is the best way toward truth. That leads me to be classified as an atheist, or skeptic in more general terms.
I think this is something those of faith don't understand .. they kinda see it as 'defending a label' or doctrine or position, where it is more just one of many reasoned conclusions. This for the most part has theists not ready for the discussion, as they come from the other angle, that everything must make sense as it's in the bible, and just try and work out that sense as they go in the discussion, with disastrous results.
I think you would find some value in working on your logic with those that are kinda like minded … deists. You can find some really nice folk over at http://www.unifieddeism.com/community/forums
Hi DaveError,
Thanks for the link.
I will pop in sometime soon.
I agree completely with your first point about the value of giving people something to think about in public AvT debates and at the risk of sounding immodest I dont think my posts over at AFA were a complete waste of time in that respect. Certainly YOUR posts were not boring to me either in quality or quantity.
People dont have to commit to a view about who "won" or "lost" and in any case such debates are like chess – the more you do it the better you get. (I hope you dont improve TOO MUCH more.)
Of those who watched your debate contribution there will be people who have commendations AND criticisms and the same with mine. People can learn as much by watching someone "win" as the can by watching someone they feel "lost"
Best regards – Lion (IRC)
Your imagination is an amazing thing Lion
What 24 hour ban and communication are you talking about prior to the “debate”?
As for unexplained bans… the banning system requires a mod to enter a reason so you are talking through a hole in your head which is probably the same place your logic went.
And no, you won’t be coming back.. we’ve had enough of trolls. Have a nice life.
Hi Protium,
All I can say is you MEMORY is an amazing thing
Best regards – Lion (IRC)
PS – Does "wont" mean in you lifetime or mine?